Ep 91. Welcome to the last episode of season 3! Second-year intern Ella joins us this time to talk about a recent interaction she had with a woman at a college (not a college student). We discuss how to deal with distraction, how to speak the truth in love, and we talk about Ella's time with Created Equal. Come debrief with us.
We highly recommend the book Love Unleashes Life by Stephanie Gray Connors for helpful tips on how to talk to people compassionately while remaining rooted in the truth.
Come intern with us!
Here is a video of a helpful conversation all about IVF, surrogacy, and infertility.
Conceived by Science is a book all about IVF, written by Stephanie Gray Connors.
Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/debriefwithus/
Follow Created Equal on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/createdequalorg/
Visit our website: https://www.debriefwithus.com
Check out more outreach convos: https://www.youtube.com/createdequalfilms
Contact us: email@example.com
Maggie: What do you do when someone is doing everything they can to distract you from having conversations? Second year intern Ella is here to talk about that with us today. Come debrief with us.
Hello, hello. My name is Maggie and I'm here with Seth as usual, but we don't have Ethan with us and instead we have Ella with us. Ella, thank you for coming on the show with us today. Thank you. So you are a second year intern. We'll talk about that a little bit more in the Later in the episode, but
Seth: yeah, buckle up people it's gonna be exciting.
Maggie: Yes so today we're gonna talk about a Conversation more than just a conversation a whole interaction that you had recently with this woman at a college recently
Seth: I'm intrigued for the difference. So we'll get into that. Yes
Maggie: You were not there. That was right, but you I'm sure you heard about it.
Seth: I don't remember.
Maybe we'll find out
Maggie: Maybe you don't even know what the clip is yet So, yeah, let's get into the clip and we'll talk about it.
Seth: Do you want to do an outreach highlight? Oh, that's what I was forgetting. No worries. Alright, so outreach highlight. This is a little different this week, but, um, so many of our listeners have heard us talk about Otterbine before, the campus we go to, where the students bring bedsheets, they try to buy the college, I mean, buy the sidewalk to stop us from coming.
But a while ago, this Otterbine student slid into my DMs on Instagram and has been chatting with me. So, it's been kind of like a little, , online outreach, which is not usually our thing. We prefer on the street outreach, but I've been talking to him because he's a student there that has seen us. And so his position is this, which I think is very interesting.
He keeps saying over and over again, the fetus is, or not in these so many words, but basically the fetus is human. The fetus is not a human, right? I don't know if our listeners have heard that before, but you both probably have, right? The difference being when they say, what do you make of that? The difference when they say that the fetus is human, but not a human.
What does that mean to you?
Maggie: They don't see them as a person.
Seth: Yeah, it's like a part of a human. Like, your finger has human DNA and it's not a human being. So, another just confusion of parts and wholes. But this conversation is ongoing, so maybe listen, I guess, for future. Check back in, I'll tell you how it goes.
Seth: And now to the clip.
Maggie: Yes, now to the clip that I forgot to... Wait, no, not the clip.
Seth: You remembered the clip.
Maggie: I did remember the clip. I did not remember the outreach highlight. But now we're going to listen to the clip.
Woman: They don't care about their victims. They don't care about us.
Ella: I never said they did.
Woman: And I never said I agree with abortion.
Ella: Right, so let's not make assumptions about each other.
Woman: Let's talk about prevention.
Ella: You can talk about prevention. I'm going to talk about the children that already exist that are being murdered every day.
Woman: Victims of violent rape get custody rights to the babies that we no longer have a right to choose what we do with our bodies.
Ella: I find it interesting that you think it's so wrong that these children... But you're okay with ripping them apart?
Woman: Did I say that?
Ella: You, you're saying, you're saying we don't, you're saying we don't have rights to our bodies, but what rights to...
What, what kind of rights to your bodies? You think we should have the right to do you
Woman: seen the life of a fetus? When do you think it gets its heart beat? By the way, I have twin boys.
Ella: Okay. They get their heart beat developed at 16 days.
Woman: Do children?
Ella: I don't, no. But I don't believe that matters.
Woman: Can you stand out here and tell me what I can do with mine?
Ella: I don't believe that anyone should have the right to kill their children, no.
Woman: If you're raped, should you be allowed to...
Ella: That child, that, that child that was conceived in rape is just as valuable as a child that was conceived in love. So no, I do not believe that that child deserves to be left apart.
Woman: So if you have to give up custody to your rapist, then what?
Maggie: Okay, so... I, I'm curious, Seth, if you remember here.
Seth: I did hear about this, yeah. As it was happening. All right, so. I was getting calls from people.
Maggie: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. She was crazy, right? Yeah. So, obviously, this was not that long ago, and you remember it pretty well, right?
Yeah. So, how did this whole interaction go?
Ella: . So she had a sign that said rapist gets, , custody. We were all kind of confused what that meant so we were talking to her about it and she was saying that, , a man who rapes a woman can, , go to court and win custody over that child.
we researched that and that was not true at all, , but she wasn't opening to listening to that. But yeah, she was, she was pretty crazy.
Seth: It's also interesting. This was at Columbus State Community College. There's a college here in, , Columbus, Ohio. This is, we're talking during the summertime, but this is a school that has college classes.
Ella: So she was not a student, I don't believe. Was she? No, she dropped her son off. She said that she had a 16 year old son because she came in first and she was all mad at us. , and that was when she brought her son in. . Yeah, so I don't, I'm not sure if she worked there, or, or what.
Maggie: yeah, , I remember hearing things about her that day when y'all got back from outreach, and it's, like y'all were saying, it's just, it is a little bit concerning that someone like that has children and is, you know, indoctrinating her own children with the stuff that she was saying.
But, , , you're, what, 17, right? Yeah. , so. I listened to, when I was preparing for this episode earlier today, I was, , listening through a little bit more of the conversation. I didn't listen to nearly all of it, there was a lot to go through, but, , I was able to listen to a little bit past this point, and she really was saying some pretty inappropriate things to you.
And just being distracting in general, , how do you deal with that when you are encountering someone who is saying things to you that they shouldn't even be saying but then even just trying to distract you from talking to other people?
Ella: Yeah, , it kind of depends on the situation because with her, I do believe she was telling us how she was raped and I do believe that that did happen to her because she was tearing up and all that.
, so I was trying to be compassionate towards her but... You kind of have to figure out at what point do you just have to move on. Cause really, we weren't going to get anywhere with her. , so yeah, like you said, she was just trying to distract us. But I think that, I don't know, it's just, you have to, you have to keep your mind, , in a mindset where You know what you're doing is, is right, , and what she's saying, you have to be careful not to let it get to you, because it was, it was hard for me, because she was saying pretty horrible things, , so I just had to be careful to not let that, you know, get to me.
Seth: That's not easily done, though, Ella, because I think anyone listening here, Who wasn't there seeing her face to face can still understand a bit what you're, the picture you're painting here. This is someone who is not just walking up some angry, rabid, pro abortion protester, right? Someone who has this experience of intense pain in her past.
, it's hard, Maggie's question, I'm just kind of rephrasing it, but just for emphasis. It's hard to balance compassion for the person while also speaking truth I think it sounds like you were doing that for the video clip and maggie You'd know more from listening to the whole thing but can you any other insights on how you've learned to do that because I think a lot of people struggle with being either overly compassionate and leaving truth behind or being truthful but not compassionate How do you share truth and love with someone who is?
Even as she's doing this now, I mean engaging in inappropriate behavior with you. Like how do you balance that truth and love?
Ella: Yeah, , I let them know she said she had an abortion, but I let her know that I think what she did was wrong , but I also explained that I don't think that she's a bad person for that, right?
I think that she made a decision that wasn't good, but I don't think that means that she's a horrible person, right? Just sharing sharing the truth with them and how she can find healing From that, I think it's really important.
Seth: Yeah, she's not more bad than any of us. I mean, any, any one of our sins separates off from God.
So whether it's an abortion or a lie or whatever it may be, there are various consequences to sin. I'm not saying there's not, but every single one's enough to separate us from God. So it's not like she's worse than us. In some way, in the sense that we're all equal and only in loss without Christ.
Right. So I think that's why you can love her . That's a thing, just beautiful thing that a lot of people, especially at your age, might not know how to balance that. So that's pretty cool.
Maggie: Yeah. I was very impressed listening to you. , And how you really showed compassion for her in that horrible thing that she went through but then also remaining focused on what you were there to do and talk about the babies killed by abortion.
So, is there, can you think of anything that if you had to do this again, would, is there anything that you would do better or differently
Ella: Yeah, , I think that at first, First, I was coming across as, I didn't know if she was joking or what, because I, sometimes you really can't tell, but I think I did come across a little too, you know, condescending at first, but then after I was talking to her for a while, , I kind of realized where she was coming from, which I still think that she could have done something better, but, yeah, , so I do wish that I wasn't as condescending at first,
Maggie: yeah, I mean, yeah, I agree with you, it can be hard to tell, , but.
I did see later on in the clip where she was, like, I didn't listen to all of it, but, like, basically describing what she went through. Yeah. And, it does sound terrible. It, it kind of seemed to me like she was, , maybe she wanted someone else to feel her pain, like she did, like, she almost wanted you to experience that, so she was describing it really in a way that she shouldn't have been, but.
Ella: Yeah, and she, , she did mention that, I think at one point she was, she was saying, like, if you want to talk about it, you have to know what happens, so.
Maggie: Yeah. Seth, do you have any tips for how you would respond in this kind of situation and how you stay on track while remaining compassionate?
Seth: Yeah. No, um, this is a good question.
I think that it is hard to do. There are some great questions we can gather from people like, you know, a lot of our staff enjoy Stephanie Gray Connor's book, Love Unleashes Life, and questions she has in there for people. I have not watched the whole interaction, so I'm not saying this should have been even used that way.
But one. Helpful tool when someone is unloading on us like this. Now you can think in her mind, the reason she's unloading, she assumed a lot about Ella. Ella's, uh, lacks knowledge and, and compassion and care. So I'm just going to unload on her and make her feel the pain that I felt, right? So it seems like she's assuming a lot about Ella.
So there's one book I love in Stephanie Gray Connor's book and I'm going to... Paraphrase it, probably butcher it, but she asked essentially like tell, ask the person, what do you think I think about people like you or people who've had abortions or someone like your sister who had an abortion, whatever.
But just asking like what you seem to be upset about me being here. What do you think I think about you? And why are you so upset? Because I think that there's a premise or she's not stayed. And if she had said, you know what, Ella, I think you hate me. Ella could say, that's just not true. Right. There's no, I don't hate you.
I love you. I know that I too have done wrong, right? And then we both need Christ's forgiveness. So I think that's one thing you can do. And try to kind of expose the reason they're being so hostile towards you. But now if she just, it's just her, , pain, I think you also, and she might not be willing to say, I am hurting.
I need help. Although you can totally see that, right? Something I think our team probably did that day is talking in code. Like, you know, maybe you feel fine today, but maybe someday you're going to come to the end where you finally realize you need help. You need to realize you're not going to get it anywhere except through the Lord, right?
So that you can share the gospel of Jesus Christ that you can't just overlook your abortion. You can't just forget, clearly she can't forget the rape. You can't just erase any of that pain. You cannot, this is a great example of abortion does not unrape people, right? It does not take away their pain. This woman's still in pain who knows how long afterward.
Clearly, there's only one way to find genuine healing, and that's not through medication, it's not through even counseling. Those things can be helpful in certain ways, but what she really needs is the work of Jesus Christ to heal her. And I think that's just what we have to get out there.
Can I get an amen?
Maggie: Amen, brother.
Yeah, that's good advice. , I also read that Stephanie Gray Connors book and, , she has some really good advice in there about how to talk to people, , truthfully, but with love. Yeah.
Another point I want to make is just that her, clearly her personal experience, With rape is making her feel very strongly about this and that's completely understandable. Mm hmm. , and we should not make light of that. That this is personal to people. but we just, we have to remember they're not the only victims.
And I hope that that doesn't sound unfeeling. , but , we also have to remember the babies. And like I said, I was. Really impressed with you for continuing to bring that up, , and focus on what we were there for, what you were there for. I wasn't there. But, So one thing I noticed was later in the clip, she tried to use the fact that you don't have children against you.
, and you, you said that you don't think that matters. , that the, the argument against abortion stands no matter what, whether or not you have children. , Do you think you could expound on that a little bit? Why that doesn't matter?
Ella: Yeah, I mean, I think that it's kind of similar to when they say men can't have opinions Who you are as a person doesn't change what you're saying and what's true That's kind of an ad hominem.
Seth: There we go right there. Nice job.
Ella: So yeah, I just I don't think that who says it determines what it means or what You know, it doesn't change the truth.
Maggie: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Ella: one thing I, I thought was interesting was she was, she was talking about , trafficking, like child trafficking a lot. , And she brought up how they, sell the, the children's body parts, right? she's, she said they rip up the children. And I found that really interesting because she was so against that and telling us how horrible we were , for not talking about that.
But , I asked her, like, how is that any different than what is happening on our signs? Like, you can look at our signs and see that exact thing. , but she just wasn't, she wasn't open to that. So I just found that really interesting how she wasn't consistent like that.
Seth: The inconsistency. I loved, Ella, when you asked the question.
Ella: So... You are opposed to the rapist having custody, right? The kid who is created through rape living with the rapist, but you think it's okay to rip him apart, right? That's a great argument there. If it's wrong for them to be with the rapist physically where they're endangered. Isn't it more wrong for them to be physically torn apart?
I think it's a great argument that you presented to her, what we call it A4 Teori argument to the stronger. If it's wrong to hurt someone this way, adding more harm is even worse, right? So that was a great argument showing again her inconsistency. So she has some common, we have common ground with her on some level, but she's not consistently applying the ethic of concern for victims to all people, just to those who are born like her.
Maggie: Yeah, one thing I noticed was that she kept saying, I never said, I'm for abortion. But clearly by the things she was saying, she was, she was trying to justify it.
She was saying, I don't, we don't have rights to our bodies anymore, meaning we don't have rights to abortion. Why do you think that she was trying to claim that?
Ella: Yeah, I mean, clearly she was for abortion. thinking while we were talking, I wonder if she's trying to... If she's saying that so that she can make her position sound better, because like we said, she was very inconsistent, so maybe by saying that it would make her sound more consistent, , She didn't do it very well.
Seth: I just think it's so funny when people shy away from that. Like I, we're, we're happy to say we're anti abortion, but there's something a lot of people still this, like this check. They don't want to say I am for abortion. This still sounds bad. Why? Because you're killing people.
Maggie: Yeah. Oh yeah. She even admitted that their children at one point, what I think it was in the clip, she was like, if you don't have children, why do you think you can tell me what I can do with my children?
Children, basically admitting that they are children, even when you abort them, they are children. Right. That was interesting.
So Now, let's talk about your time as a second year intern. You are here for a second summer in a row. How's it been going?
Ella: It has been really great. It's a lot different than the first year. I've been doing a lot of office work, , which I've actually enjoyed. , more outreach, but yeah, , it's fun, , in a different way than the first year, but I did really enjoy it.
Seth: Let's clarify, office work, so you're not just sitting like stuffing envelopes somewhere, right?
Ella: No, no, no. Yeah, so, so I'm like... I'm in the creative media department. So yeah, , so I'm getting clips from outreach footage and Posting reels and all that and getting quotes from the debrief too.
Seth: Yeah, that's super important because Everyone listening, a lot of people here would love to be part of our outreach, but they can't, right? But they can almost be there by the videos you guys create, sitting in the conversations. And that's why the debrief exists, right? To bring those conversations to more people.
So it's critical what you're doing.
Maggie: thank you for your work this summer. Which summer did you enjoy more and, , what would you say to someone considering either coming back for a second year or just coming for a first summer?
Ella: Yeah, so, I did really enjoy the classroom work, , last year.
Um, I think, I think that both years , are enjoyable in their own ways. , I think, If you're really interested in what Created Equal does, I would definitely say to come back for the second year because I became so much more familiar with how things work. , because I have been, I was con Am considering, you know, , becoming staff at some point.
, so I do think that the second year internship was really helpful in helping me see what that would look like.
Maggie: Yeah, just a small taste into working in the office. Yeah, cool.
Seth: Ella, so when you look back on this summer, they're like, what is something that's going to stand out for like marking this moment in your experience and how maybe it ways you've grown personally?
Ella: Yeah. So I think first of all, all the other interns, I was so encouraged this summer by them because we had a few that hadn't done outreach at all since the first day of the internship.
, and she jumped right in and I thought that was really encouraging to see. ,
I think that coming back for a second year, , I definitely had to step up in my roles, you know, like leading debriefer or things like that, you know, having more people shadow me.
, so it has really pushed me to, get outside my comfort zone, , and being more confident in, you know, what I'm saying, really, really thinking about what I believe in. , you know, just setting that example , for the first year interns, , that's really pushed me.
Maggie: That's great. That's one thing that I, maybe I haven't thought about as much, but that's a really good reason to come back for the second year.
It's not just that you're going to be able to get more experience seeing what it's like working full time, , for Created Equal, but , you'll even grow as a person. , because, yeah, I think leading other people always is a, good way to grow.
Seth: . Okay, so Ella, so jumping back to last year then, so for someone who's thinking about maybe doing a first year internship and you said you like the classroom stuff, people think classroom stuff's boring, so like, maybe explain, like, what is something you learned last year in the classroom that was really helpful or interesting to you?
Ella: Yeah, so, last year we, , one of the things I really liked talking about was IVF, , because it really, it really cleared up my position on that, . , just, you know, having, having people make the, the points, , on why that would be wrong was really helpful, but you talk about so many different things in the classroom, , and it's just so interesting to see, like, all these other areas of the pro life work that I had never even thought about, you know, we spoke about things that I was confused on how they applied at first, you know, , so it's just such a broad, , , uh, a wide, you know,
Seth: yeah, a wide perspective on variety issues, right?
Just trying to build your worldview, right? So IVF vitro fertilization, a lot of people have been talking more openly about that recently. We can put some show notes and links in the show notes about that, links to things for people who are interested in pursuing that. ethical question of IVF. And actually, as a second year intern, I met with you in the other second years over the summer to read a book by Stephanie Gray Connors, Conceived by Science.
It was really helpful, I thought, but you know, what you're saying is important because our internship, and Maggie, you were never an intern, I guess, right? Not here. You were at CBR though, right? But same idea. Our goal is to not only give you the basic, here's why abortion is wrong, but help you flesh out your worldview, right?
Because we're advocating for a worldview that you understand. Conclusions abortion wrong with a springs from somewhere the idea that all humans are equal that has to come from somewhere made in God's image. And that's how we know this. So we're trying to flesh all those things out for people. And it's a, it takes a summer to do it, but I think it is really critical to think about those other issues, as you said, Ellen, how they apply, even if it's not immediately clear.
Ella: Yeah. And it's just so worth it. You know, , I almost didn't do the, the internship last year and I can't imagine where I would be now. I'm so glad I did it. just cause it really has changed me as a person. I feel, I feel a lot more. Confident in what I in what I do and what I say on this topic now So I'm I'm really grateful and the other interns relationships.
Yeah, the other people they're so great You know, you're just you're working with people who you're all trying to achieve the same goal, right? and while you might disagree on some minor things, but they're just it's there's such an encouraging group of people , just so great to be around, .
Maggie: That's so good to hear! Cool, I'm so glad you came back too. I met you on the Justice Ride last year. Yeah. And you were the funnest person ever. And I'm
so glad you the Justice Riders are listening to come at you, Maggie.
Ella is hilarious, but she's also so into it.
Seth: I mean, she's here and you're not, so.
Maggie: Well, there you have it. You have to come, listeners. You have to come. Yes. Do the Justice Ride first, and then the internship, second year, gap year, staff, do it all! Be like Ella, hashtag, get that going. Yeah. Okay, well, if I didn't say it at the beginning of the episode, this is our last episode of season three.
Wow, three seasons. We're so glad that Ella joined us for the very last episode.
Seth: We traded from Ethan to Ella. Trade up! Don't tell Ethan. He never listens anyway, so it's fine.
Maggie: All right, so thank you for joining us for season three. We are Created Equal and this has been the debrief.